Playing within the (planetary) boundaries: Cricket and Climate Change with The Next Test

Chris Britt-Searle is a passionate volunteer with The Next Test. This UK-based nonprofit is becoming a vital hub for players, clubs, and fans committed to addressing the environmental challenges facing cricket.

In this thought-provoking discussion, Chris shares the story behind The Next Test and its founders, Tanya Aldred and Xeena Cooper. He offers insights into the organisation’s role in uniting the cricketing community to confront ecological issues. We examine the current status of cricket in the face of climate change and explore how players, sports organisations, and governing bodies contribute to helping (or hindering) sustainable change. Our conversation also touches on the complexities of partnerships with environmental activist groups, the challenges posed by high-carbon sponsorships, and the broader implications of ecological uncertainty on the growth and development of cricket worldwide.

This episode goes beyond the boundaries (all puns intended) of the game, challenging assumptions and offering a look at cricket’s potential to lead in the fight against climate change. Whether you are a player, fan, or simply curious about the intersection of sports and sustainability, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.

Episode 37 Transcript

[00:00:45] Ben: Welcome, Chris to the Sustaining Sport Podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having me. No, you're very welcome. I always like to start with a brief bit of background on who I'm talking to. So firstly, who are you and also how did you get into this line of work?

[00:00:58] Chris: Yeah, I mean, I'll settle my stool early in that I'm very much a spirited amateur, so I do the comms for The Next Test in a completely voluntary capacity.

[00:01:09] So it's not currently my line of work. I do work in communications for a charity, but yeah, for The Next Test we're all volunteers. But yeah, I'm massive cricketer and cricket fan. Yeah, always been. Very interested in and concerned about the environments. And the two things somehow aligned in this organization.

[00:01:35] Ben: Yeah, I think it's important to get that different kind of perspective, right? Like you're in it for the right reasons because you're not being paid to do it. Which is always an important first step. And then yeah, you're bringing that passion you've had for cricket, always. Towards this threat that we all face.

[00:01:49] Why don't you run me through a little bit about the history of The Next Test, because as I mentioned before we hit record, it's an organization I've been following for what, three or four years now? I think As long since it's, it began. So just run us through a little bit about the people who founded it as well.

[00:02:02] Chris: So, I mean, it literally began us a Twitter account set up by Tanya Ridge. So Tanya is a sports journalist. She writes for The Guardian Cricket Magazine, wisdom Almanac about cricket and other sports and, but in more recent years, she's been focusing a lot on the crossover of climate impacts on cricket and obviously that it's become almost impossible to ignore the effects of climate change on sport and.

[00:02:37] Wider society. So yeah, it started as a, an outlet for her to post stuff related to, to cricket and climate change or sport. And then with I suppose we call her, our co-founder, Zena Cooper, the two of them kind of put their heads together and decided to. Evolve it into something a bit more and with a few other sort of volunteers.

[00:03:01] It morphed into its current incarnation, which I suppose is kind of difficult to pin down. But we're loosely, we're volunteers. We're a nonprofit organization. We raise awareness about climate issues, promote sustainability within the sport of cricket, and we also provide education and resources. We organize events.

[00:03:23] We recently did a. Sustainability conference with Gloucester, share Cricket club and just generally be a bit of a hub for cricket lovers who are concerned about

[00:03:34] Ben: climate issues. Yeah. And it's really important to have that place where people who are concerned but also can find people are in a similar position to to come together.

[00:03:43] 'cause I think the average fan of many sports thinks that, oh, maybe no one like me, quote unquote, feels worried about this kind of stuff. So it's great to have. The word hub, I think is a nice one, perhaps overused sometimes in commercial spaces, but it's a good one. So what are your thoughts around the current status of cricket and climate change?

[00:04:00] Like how well do you think climate change is understood by people within the sport? And do you think it's changing? I mean, it's difficult to say

[00:04:08] Chris: how well it's understood. I mean, I personally feel like people aren't stupid. I think everyone understands pretty well about what's happening. But the situation within Cricket, it is certainly one where I think Cricket has been slow to respond.

[00:04:25] We had at the conference a few weeks ago, we had as if Remaner from Ecotricity and Forest Green Rovers Football Club. And he made the point that, you know, football is miles ahead with a lot of this stuff and Cricket in comparison is lagging far behind and it's particularly. It was the British Association for Sustainability in Sport Basis.

[00:04:50] They brought out their report a few years ago, the hit for six report, which it made it pretty clear, pretty plain that cricket is especially vulnerable to climate change. One of the sports most vulnerable. It's particularly sensitive to plain conditions, to the weather, to the natural grass pitches.

[00:05:12] And many cricketing nations are right on the front line of the effects of climate change. So you've got Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, India, you've got extreme heat and wildfires in Australia, droughts in South Africa. The hurricanes in the Caribbean. I mean, the list goes on and on and it, the situation looks, it's starting to look quite precarious in some ways.

[00:05:37] Particularly at the grassroots level. Lots of games are being affected, particularly in children's cricket, but there are, I think there, there are a few sort of green shoots of positivity. You've got Pat Cummins and Cricket for Climate. They've been making waves talking about this kind of stuff.

[00:05:56] Actually getting stuff done, putting solar panels on clubs. They were recently invited by the ICC to speak at their headquarters, so they're bringing it into the mainstream.

[00:06:06] Ben: Brilliant. Yeah, I think I'll come to a, the athletes in a minute, but I just wanted to highlight those locations you laid out.

[00:06:13] 'cause I'm a big cricketing fan myself being from South Africa, and it's interesting that, yeah, as you list them, I'm like, oh my God. All of the big cricketing nations do seem to be particularly vulnerable. I mean, the sport of cricket is notoriously vulnerable to weather because, you know, light drizzle and it's game over.

[00:06:28] But it's pretty terrifying. And I think to your point, at the start. That people notice or people know about it. Like if you're a regular member of a cricketing club or you play regularly and every year, maybe for your first 30 years of what, however long you played, it was consistent. And now all of a sudden, the last five years that's gone out the window.

[00:06:47] But yeah. Now onto the athletes, what do you think the role they're having, 'cause I do think, while as you say maybe football have been talking about it more, pat Cummins amongst others is probably the most high profile athlete who's making waves. What do you think about that?

[00:07:00] Chris: He is, but he's something of an outlier within cricket.

[00:07:04] I mean, there are a few others. I've got Maya Boucher from the England team who's been very vocal about it. There are one or two. But then you look at, there was a few weeks ago there was the hundreds women footballers signed the petition about Aramco, sponsorship of fifa, I think it was. But I think it's, there's an incredible opportunity there.

[00:07:26] Cricket players, sports people in general, I like to think of it as an opportunity for them to stand up and be counted. They have this huge platform. They are role models. They're very well respected and I think it's very unlikely that they'd be less respected if they, you know, if they do speak out on this issues.

[00:07:47] Of course, you're always gonna get the kind of the right wing press and the. The more traditionalists up in arms and criticizing people speaking out. But I think ultimately they're gonna be on the right side of history if, you know, if they do. And I think it's the responsibility of everyone to be speaking out about this stuff and thinking about our own impact, what we can do.

[00:08:16] And sports stars could have potentially an enormous impact. So, I mean, I don't wanna kind of lay it on them as a responsibility, but I kind of do think it is a responsibility ability for everyone. 'cause we all live on the same planet, right? And it's gonna affect all of us and we have varying capacity for what we can do.

[00:08:38] And Sports Stars potential is huge.

[00:08:42] Ben: I think that's a good way of phrasing it, that we all have skin in the game because we're all on the same rock. I mean, you mentioned that Pat Cummins is speaking with the ICC, that's the International Cricket Council. Do you think they have a role, because obviously you mentioned Aramco.

[00:08:55] I believe they're also currently sponsored by Aramco. So what's, what do you think the situation is there?

[00:09:00] Chris: Yeah, I mean. You hear a lot of criticism with the ic I obviously the Aramco deal is really not great. It's sending all the wrong messages. Obviously the ICC could play a huge role. Whether or not they will, I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of the ICC is really, I mean, I know they ostensibly are running the global game.

[00:09:27] Whether they really do that in a way that is always for the best interests of cricket, I'm not sure, let alone the wider society in the planet. So I'm not overly optimistic that they will play a positive role. However, the fact that they're open to at least listening to the conversation is positive. Yeah, I mean they recently renewed the deal with the, so it doesn't look great.

[00:10:00] They're lagging behind lots of other organizations in terms of like sustainability plans and certainly actions. So yeah, great potential, but it remains to be seen remains.

[00:10:14] Ben: Yeah, it's an interesting one around these global governing bodies because there is always the concern of who do they report to?

[00:10:21] We're kind of hoping that they buckled to pressure from organizations like yours, but there always seems to be the potential to kick the can down the road, and there is no body that can mandate it because they're kind of marking their own homework on that one. So I agree with you. I'm not particularly optimistic, and as you say, you wonder what kind of role they have.

[00:10:40] On the grassroots game. For a perfect example, if some local cricket club wants to take up some kind of action, whether it be with their own strategy or some kind of awareness raising, I mean, that's entirely within the realm of possibility and it's, I guess, great that we don't have to wait for the ICC to take the lead on that.

[00:10:57] And yeah, maybe a little bit of what you mentioned before about being the right side of history, and they might be a little bit of this late mover thing. You know, you, although these sports bodies have been slow to move, you don't wanna be the last one.

[00:11:07] Chris: No, absolutely. And it's in a similar vein to global governments can't wait for them to sort their, sort themselves out or giant corporations.

[00:11:17] The this, the work must go on at pace. We can't wait around for, to be told that we're given the green light or for someone to come and save us there. There's a lot of work to be done and yeah, chances are eventually they will go on board once they see which way the wind is going.

[00:11:36] Ben: What do you think about the idea of the game being used in.

[00:11:41] Other unsustainable ways that's actually not to do with the process of the game or even sponsorship. And what I'm thinking of at the moment is that recently ExxonMobil announced that they were gonna sponsor the Guyana T 20 League. And obviously Guyana have now oil reserves, which they're gonna access off their coast.

[00:11:59] And I wonder. There's the sponsorship element, and we've obviously just talked about that regarding Aramco, but I do worry that also in that sense, cricket might be being used as a facilitator of funds to various places. Do you think there's a risk of that in the game? And, you know, what could maybe a Cricket fan do to remedy that?

[00:12:15] So I was, this is, I was talking

[00:12:17] Chris: about this the other day the ExxonMobil in, in Guyana. It's very difficult to criticize a country like Guyana for taking the money. I think the, any criticism needs to be firmly at the door of ExxonMobil. They've been actively denying climate change for decades.

[00:12:36] They've covered up their own research, they've funded climate denial, and they put an absolute pittance into funding renewables and they continued to expand fossil fuel exploration and sponsoring a cricket leading league in Guyana. That's them. That's greenwashing. They're trying to launder their reputation through cricket.

[00:12:57] Now, I don't, I, as someone in the wealthy global North, I feel a little bit uncomfortable criticizing, developing nations for wanting to, needing the investment and wanting to develop. I and I think it's a failure of the, of global society really. I think there's a great climate debt. Owed by the global north to the global south, and we've put 'em in a position where, you know, how could you say no to oil companies like ExxonMobil?

[00:13:31] And then Cricket is kind of is caught up in that.

[00:13:35] Ben: That's a very strong point and I would recommend to any listener to go check out the interview with the BBC that the president of Guyana gave about a year ago now, where he essentially pointed out the fact that they haven't chopped down their rainforest, which is quite significant.

[00:13:50] Which of course, the planet Earth have been enjoying the fresh air that comes from that. So while you know, as you say, nations in the global north industrialize and chop down all their own trees, we still got to breed someone else's air. If we think about it in such. Ownership and managerial terms. I think you, you phrased it very well around where we should aim our criticism, and I think we also shouldn't try and characterize ExxonMobil as doing some favor to someone.

[00:14:15] They are there and they're sponsoring their cricket league to extract value down the line from the oil that is there. They're not doing it to help the people of Guyana as much as the sponsorship may look like that immediately on the outside, but as you've so articulately said, they are fully justified.

[00:14:30] At least in the short to medium term to access some relevant level of development. And I think it puts pressure on institutions in the global North, for example, Exxon in the United States, which are, I believe the United States is still the biggest producer and consumer of oil to, you know, change their own actions before we start criticizing others.

[00:14:49] Chris: And again, I'd come back to that, the idea that this is an opportunity. So ExxonMobil want to launder and greenwash their reputation through the Global Super League, fantastic opportunity for cricketers taking part in that or other cricketing organizations to put their hand up and say something and say, Hey, wait a minute.

[00:15:10] We are not so, we're not so cool with this. Maybe can we talk about ExxonMobil? And some of the things that they've done in the past and some of the things they continue to do and the responsibility and debt that they carry for the damage that they've done.

[00:15:29] Ben: And this is the other side of the coin of sports washing conversations is it, does it backfire?

[00:15:35] Does it inadvertently bring more attention and more negative press to the institution looking for that positive image? Whereas before they could kind of hide in the background. And maybe we're thinking about it too much in like, which gets attention in Western press. 'cause obviously any issues that, for example, Aramco were.

[00:15:53] Dealing with, I'm sure there was, you know, local activists and stuff dealing with it, but as of course, as soon as they moved into sport in the way they ha they have done it does raise the question a bit more and the fact that it least the likes of me and you were talking about it,

[00:16:06] Chris: I don't really understand what they're trying to achieve.

[00:16:09] I mean, I can't see how it can do anything other than get people talking about it in a negative way.

[00:16:15] Ben: Yes. Whereas Exxon seems a bit more direct. It's like we want that specific oil field through the cricket. So yeah. Back to Cricket, oh, this is a cricket podcast. What do you think around the growth of the game?

[00:16:27] Because of course there is two sides of this. There is the idea that more people around the world can start playing and enjoying cricket. You know, I love cricket. There's something inherently good within cricket, but there's also this idea of bigger tournaments, bigger sponsorship deals, more flying. How do you think those two things can kind of coalesce?

[00:16:45] Chris: I mean, it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a paradox, isn't it? Because I mean, in a way it's like a microcosm of the kind of global economy because there are certain areas, certain countries, certain aspects of cricket that really could do with development. Thinking about like the women's game, some of these countries like Afghanistan, some of the newer cricketing nations is taking off in the US and particularly there's the huge imbalance.

[00:17:13] Amongst the, you've got the big three test nations who have kind of all the money and then you've got the, all the others who are kinda struggling, like West Indies, South Africa, can't really afford to play test cricket anymore, or not to the same degree the say Australia and England and India. However, at the same time, I think there's too much cricket going on.

[00:17:36] It's just endless. There's constantly these new tournaments popping up everywhere. The calendar is absolutely rammed. I saw there are players in the news the other day, I can't remember who it was, spoke up saying, and it needs to be less cricket. I think in some ways there is too much and it can't just keep growing and growing exponentially for many reasons and.

[00:18:02] I was listening to one of your previous episodes, I can't remember who you're talking to, but you know there is a kind of a saturation point. There's only so much cricket that as a fan one can consume. There's far more than I can ever possibly consume or want to consume, and it can't just keep growing and growing.

[00:18:24] Or maybe it can, but is that desirable? And I'd say it's certainly not sustainable from an environmental point of view. It's not sustainable from a player point of view. And it gets to the point where you wonder like, what is this all for? Why is there so much cricket or sport in general? And a lot of it seems to come down to money.

[00:18:45] It's a big money spinner.

[00:18:46] Ben: Yes that they always seem to think of it in terms of profit per tournament, profit per event. And so they say, oh, okay, well, we'll make X amount per event, therefore we'll do 10 of them. But I was only watching the first three 'cause that's how much I enjoyed. And then as you said, there's a saturation point, there's a, there's scarcity value.

[00:19:04] I, I think particularly, again, maybe I'm sounding a bit like a traditionalist, but for me it was quite seasonally based where in the winter I was watching a lot of rugby. And in the summer, the cricket season came around and that was part of that, and there was kind of joy in that, and I almost compare it to seasonal foods that when you knew you had to wait six, eight months for a certain type of food, when it came around it was a particularly high level of joy.

[00:19:26] Whereas now that everything is, I guess, through, you know, globalization always available all the time in a weird way, doesn't seem as nice.

[00:19:35] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. I often think, again, you were talking about this with a previous guest about that like degrowth, that idea of shifting our parameters, shifting our and perhaps finding joy, finding contentment in consuming less.

[00:19:55] And that has been, that's certainly been my experience in life. I mean, I feel like, again, that's a very kind of privileged first world attitude. Oh, I've got too much of everything. I need to have a bit less. Again, it comes back to the beginning of this point where there are some areas where we need development people's standard of living does need to be raised.

[00:20:18] They do need better healthcare and better education and better living conditions and more access to all the things we take for granted. And yeah, it's kind of mirrored in cricket. There are certain aspects which could definitely do with development. There are certain aspects which. I think we could do without like the, I hesitate to single out the hundreds because I know it's been great for the women's game, but to me that's like, it's like the fast food version of cricket.

[00:20:48] It's like instant gratification, sugary, colorful, high octane in your face, kind of for the social media generation, cricket, and again, now I sound like a traditional, this dudy. And who am I? If people enjoy that kind of thing, good for them, but like, is it really benefiting the game? I mean, well, yeah. I mean, I certainly fast food occasionally, but it's not, it wouldn't, I wouldn't want it to be my sole diet, which, if we take this, continue this analogy, that's kind of the way Cricket is going.

[00:21:24] These wham bam, one month, two month T 20 T 10 tournaments popping up everywhere. It's just gonna take over the entire calendar. And there won't be room for much else.

[00:21:36] Ben: I mean, I think it depends. I think the, as you say, it's a, the fast food is quite a good comparison because it's not like. Anyone who enjoys fast food is morally wrong by no way, shape, or form.

[00:21:48] And in fact, a lot of places in the world, fast foods are the only form of available food in terms of distance and cost. So it's not to criticize any of those people. But then as you say, is that the kind of right kind of system we wanna live in, that's the only thing that's available. But bringing it more directly back to cricket.

[00:22:04] I guess it's a question of, and I'm hesitant to use the word because again it sounds like it's critical of the other types, but things might, how memorable it is or how meaningful or how much like people remember it. I do think that is slightly dictated by. One, the scarcity. I think that's an important one.

[00:22:22] And two, like the sort of buildup where, A good example would be recently when New Zealand beat India men's team, like in a test series in India. That was significant because it hadn't happened in, what was it, 23 years or something, and people remember that. Whereas if you ask me who won? One of the 25 T 20 leagues last year.

[00:22:41] I couldn't tell you, and again, maybe that's a reflection of me as a type of fan, but given the existence of this podcast and how much I think about this, I do think there is a discussion around trying to work out what's particularly valuable in all of these things that we do and try and. Protect that without trying to have all, sometimes what I would call the fluff, like, do we need 15 types of merchandise?

[00:23:03] Do we need 16 betting companies on all of our sports? And like, yes, athletes and coaches need to make a living and that's fine, but do they need to be multi multimillionaires at the risk of making the game inauthentic? So I think that's where, and I'm glad you brought up the topic of Degrowth, 'cause I don't like talking about it in every episode, but I do think it's always there.

[00:23:22] To be talked about. It's not necessarily that everything must disappear and that we are gonna do nothing, but it is a, an opportunity to reflect on what's valuable and what we can have in a post in a a more sustainable once the world is sustainably transitioned.

[00:23:37] Chris: Absolutely. And yeah you keep touching upon value.

[00:23:41] And I think what's really valuable about sports is it's not just. Entertainment. It's not just this kind of commodity that, that it's, it is rapidly turning into, it's being commodified and turned into this entertainment package to fill the gaps between adverts. But for me, I mean, I always come at sport from a player's angle 'cause that's my first love.

[00:24:10] I love playing sport. That's more valuable to me than watching it. And it. It's so much more than just playing a game. It's, for me, it's like, it's a form of meditation. It's my main source of socializing. It's a form of community. It's one of the main ways that I stay fit and healthy and that helps my mental health.

[00:24:31] And it's all kind of, it's a great opportunity to get outside out in especially with cricket out in some beautiful places out in the countryside. So there's so much. There's so much more to it. It's a really valuable part of my life and millions, billions of other people's lives. And I think watching sport as a fan can play many of those roles as well.

[00:24:57] But if you are devaluing that experience by just turning it into this relatively meaningless kind of flash in the pan fast food experience. You are devaluing it, it is losing some of its meaning. And I think again, that there's so many similarities that you can draw between that and life in general.

[00:25:23] What is what's the point of all this? What are we doing here if it isn't to live on a hopefully healthy green? Planet. There isn't. The air we're breathing isn't polluted. The water we're drinking isn't full of plastic. And ideally, we'd like all to be living healthy, happy, fulfilled lives. And we seem to be missing that in all of this.

[00:25:49] We often talk about climate change, but then I think surely could we not all agree that like. Wouldn't we just like to have that, you know, a nice livable planet that's not like horribly polluted and where we haven't created the sixth mass ex great mass extinction. Wouldn't it be nice to have a bit of wildlife and biodiversity and everyone not be miserable and stressed all the time working in jobs that pointless bullshit jobs that they hate?

[00:26:22] Wouldn't that be a nice world?

[00:26:24] Ben: Yeah, I mean, you've touched on I would say all the themes there, which was great. But I think very valid. I think, of course you acknowledged earlier, but we acknowledge, again, there's an element of privilege here where it's easy for us to say, but then there, there is an interesting irony here that countries that are quite privileged with the highest GDP don't necessarily have the highest happiness indicators and.

[00:26:45] Obviously there's that great argument that GDP is by no means an indicator of people's wellbeing and therefore maybe you could argue the same is true to sports. That short-term profit margins does not indicate a quote unquote healthy sport that people are. You know that it means a lot to people. It becomes, and I'm sympathetic of course, to.

[00:27:06] Know, sport does exist, at least at the moment in a capitalist world. So sports bodies and sports organizers have to balance the books at the end of the year. But when will the moment come where we can just sort of sit down and reflect being like what's the long-term goal here? Because as you say, we can squeeze 2, 3, 4 more seasons out of this high octane.

[00:27:27] Fast food version of certain types of sports, or we can think about the long term where we know that we can't keep doing that one out of the inability to squeeze more profit. But two, I would also, as you say, a livable planet. It's not my phrase, but I do like it. There's no sport on a dead planet.

[00:27:43] There's a moment where we can sit down and talk about exactly that. And actually going back to what you said right at the start of that bit, it is interestingly meditative. I said to one of my friends the other day, when was the last time you went 10 minutes about picking up your phone? And he was like, when he played rugby on the weekend, I was like, that is a good, that's a good reason.

[00:27:58] Chris: Absolutely. And so just touching on that, when you mentioned like, is there a huge difference between someone playing sport at a grassroots level on a Sunday morning just for fun? Are they getting less enjoyment out of that than a pro? I mean, chances are they're getting more enjoyment out of it.

[00:28:19] 'cause that's their once a week outlet. I kind of, I feel sorry for some of these, like, especially pro cricketers, they're just constantly playing all year round. They're away from home for months and months on end. Living in living outta suitcases in the hotel rooms. I'm probably not having a great time a lot of the time.

[00:28:40] Ben: Yes there's, there is a bit of interesting research around athletes that it seems that if they reflect on when they were most happy, it was at that moment, almost just before they went pro, where they, it was obvious they were good, you know, whether it was at school level or something. So, you know, they were getting that sort of affirmation from being the best in their community or whatever.

[00:28:58] But it hadn't become a grind essentially. It hadn't become, as you say, like something they had to think about 24 7, which is an inter another interesting thing. Should sport exclusively be a job? Oh, good. So many good questions. But to bring this to some kind of close and obviously reflect back on the organization of which you volunteer for.

[00:29:18] What do you think with all of this in mind, The Next Test can have the best impact? And is it at the community level? Is it with fans? Is it with players? Is it with sports bodies? Where do you see your guys best route to some kind of change? I

[00:29:31] Chris: mean, I think there's kind of two, two prongs. I think we can, I think we can kind of build a network within the game, within the kind of pro game, which is kind of what we're doing.

[00:29:45] People who are influential and who are working on sustainability within the game and advocating for change and yeah, kind of driving that forward at that level. But also I think we can, what we're trying to connect with fans and players more at the grassroots level and a kind of provide education and resources, ideas for things that they can do.

[00:30:16] Immediate wins such as the greening your ground, creating space for nature for biodiversity, installing solar panels, stuff like that. Oh, incidentally, I promised Tanya I'd mention. The Greenest Ground Award, the Cricketer Magazine, greenest Ground Awards will be announced in their next issue, which is coming in the next few weeks.

[00:30:37] So stuff like that, we want to talk about positive stories of what's happening at the grassroots, what kind of every day cricketers and cricket fans are doing to make those small changes can inspire others. Just through quite simple, easy actions that you can take pretty much immediately. I

[00:30:57] Ben: mean that, I think that's a brilliant note to end on.

[00:30:59] So if anyone is listening who is already doing something, please reach out to The Next Test and tell them about what you're doing. And that can be spread and other people can learn from that. And if you don't know what you're doing, please reach out to The Next Test and they can they can provide you with some more information on that.

[00:31:12] So I guess I would say Chris, thank you so much for your time and to everyone at The Next Test, thank you for your great work.

[00:31:18]Chris: Thank you, Ben. Thank you so much for having me, having us on.