Ecological imperialism through sport? The Dakar Rally and other stories

Today we are speaking with Chen Chen. He is an Assistant Professor at the University of Connecticut and writes prolifically about how sport intersects with many troubling trends across the globe including environmental decline and increasing inequality of wealth and power.

This episode begins with Chen’s unique story that led him to these topics. Then we use his recent work on how the Dakar rally’s time in South America was a prime example of environmental injustice and even ecological imperialism, as local communities and areas dense with biodiversity were given no say in how and where this event took place. We explore how this event embodies larger issues of resource exploitation, environmental degradation, and cultural erasure.

We also discuss some alternative ways of engaging in community sports such as The World Indigenous Games and Field of Dreamers – Cooperative Softball Association.

Episode 34 Transcript

Ben: Welcome Chen to the Sustaining Sport Podcast.

Chen: My absolute pleasure. My absolute pleasure.

Ben: So why don't you tell us a little bit about one, how you got into this space, but two, how you found your academic career in this space?

Chen: So first I I was someone growing up in China. I live in China until about 24 year old.

And I, you know, I love sport. I love watching sport, particularly the live streamed Italian soccer league, Serie A. And The NBA's back when I was a kid and probably still now. And I'm always interested in, in using sport as a, as a means to understand different culture, different people across the world and things like that.

And on the other hand, I'm always interested in just societal issues. I have that interest in, in becoming a journalist. Particularly sport journalist when I was a much younger, so I went to a journalism school in China and got some formal education in journalism and you know, I still wasn't quite satisfied with what I was taking in and I wanted to explore more as to what kind of things I I was capable of pursuing in terms of learning in more depth.

the relationship between sport and social issues. So I, without knowing much, without knowing much what entails in a PhD, so I, I went to apply for a few PhD programs in North America and end up getting admitted to the kinesiology program at the University of Alberta in Edmonton. So that was that was obviously a life changing situation, and of course, I got to sit in seminars on social theories, on research methodologies, and obviously You know, also just practicing my English and hanging out with graduate student peers.

I was obviously also getting to know the country of Canada, the city of Edmonton, the province of Alberta. Later on, obviously, I came to understand the colonial history, the obviously ongoing settler colonial violence happening in that territory and in North America in general. So, So I was very shocked, to say the least, I would say that I never thought of some of these larger historical formations.

That never taught, never, never discussed, never, I would say, brought into my attention before I naively, I retrospectively say that I pursue an advanced education in such a country like Canada. So, I see different things, I try to ask for questions, and within, within my seminar room, within the hallways of the, of the university, There is not much going on.

There is not much going on. So even though it was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission at the time, there is a elevated awareness for the public to, to learn about residential schools in Canada, so on, so forth. It was still very difficult to, to learn that within the realm of sports studies. So I decided at some point I needed to go out of my comfort zone and, of course, asking questions about my relationship to Indigenous people, my relationship to settler colonial ongoing violence in, in Canada.

So what kind of things I could do to kind of uphold my responsibility as a visitor? What, what kind of things? Is that something that I'm capable of doing within my own capacity to undermine the colonial violence? So, I got lucky, I was very fortunate to be able to involved as a volunteer in year 2017.

Canada celebrated its 150th anniversary of its confederation. So everybody was celebrating the, the, the, the, the huge celebration going on nationwide. And there was also some Indigenous games, meaning Indigenous sport events, organized by Indigenous communities in, in Canada. I was able to work in those events, and many of them are organized and held in Indigenous territories and communities.

And really, it's a, it's a, it's a eye opening experience. Experience, understanding how native communities, indigenous peoples in Canada view sport and view, obviously, their relationship to the land, their relationship to water, their understanding, their understanding to non human species, to their way of life, their way of life.

always respect and, and, and, and I would say foster a respectful relationship with reciprocal relationship to land, to water, so on and so forth. So I think that was really, I would say, using an academic jargon. It's an epistemological, I would say, shift to me, understanding that, oh, outside the, the, the capitalist modernist way of, of life and, We, we just extract resources, we just treat the land and water, animals and plants as something to, to extract from.

There are, there are obviously different ways of existing, of living. So I would say that was very important for me in, in understanding the connection between the way colonialism not only subjugate people, but also subjugate a system of knowledge, the way of life. Therefore, I was just learning more and more.

Once, once I was on that path, it was, it's, it's hard to come back. It's hard to come back because the things I learned was very, I would say, challenging, unsettling, and it's, it's disrupting of things that I have, you know, assumed to be one way. And it was just again, from the level of personal endeavor and pursuit, I had to think about.

With all these type of learnings, what am I going to do as a researcher, as a, as a, as a, as a scholar? What kind of things I'm going to write about? What kind of things I'm teaching in, in classroom? And obviously, learning about the colonial history in North America also made me think about my own trajectory as someone from China, a developing country, the, the quote unquote, the factory of the world, manufacturing many, many goods and, and products for.

For the world to consume, why is that I was watching the sport events, the games and programs from these advanced European, North American countries, capitalist countries, why is that I think that their sport was good and their way of education was good. So, So I think I also reflected on that, like my own trajectory as reflecting a kind of colonial pattern.

So I would say that, long story short, I started to ask more questions about what is the, what is the type of work that we as academics do, and in particular, what is the things that I could do, what kind of voices I need to center and amplify. was my very small capacity.

Ben: That's excellent. And I think you clearly are quite the deep thinker because I know a lot of people who have taken definitely not the exact trajectory you have, but a similar one and would not have raised those kinds of questions or even been open to learning that level of.

Depth about the place you're going to. I also think you, you're quite an interesting case of this because you have not from Canada, right? You neither the colonizer nor the indigenous person you're coming in at not as a neutral per se, because we are, as you say, we all have our biases, but as a little bit of a a neutral party being like, right, well, this is the situation.

And yeah, I'm trying to make sense of that. I also think you raised an interesting question around, I guess we could call it. academic colonialism or imperialism, if using quite radical terms there, but the idea that if you are a promising researcher from somewhere across the globe, it is always in your interest to accept a position at Harvard.

Like you're going to get more respect. It'll push your career. It'll do all those things. But of course it means that that knowledge and that talent there become centered in Harvard. The United States and therefore that institution will produce a better paper and gain more attention, et cetera. And the same could be said of sport, I think.

So yeah, super interesting to compare those, compare those things. What would you say the, what would you say was the, the reason you picked sport to link these things? Cause as we, as I've just described, you could have picked anything. Why specifically sport as a lens to look at these issues?

Chen: Yes. Again, I would say I have become very, very invested emotionally, emotionally to sport.

And I will say that I learned all the place names of the world because of the sports teams that are located in those cities. I wouldn't have learned places like, you know let's say Orlando in the U. S. I wouldn't have learned Birmingham, United Kingdom, Had I not been exposed to their team, the Orlando Magic, the football team of Birmingham, even though they're in the, some of the lower tiers of the league at the moment.

So I just wanted to say that just having that interest, which pushed me to pursue a graduate degree, and I feel it wasn't a difficult choice because I feel like within sport, I gradually recognized that it's an emerging field of inquiry. It's not, it's not like some of these parental disciplines, such as sociology or anthropology, it's a, it's a, it's a interdisciplinary field, meaning that there is a, there is not a lot of things written about it in the, in the grand scheme of things.

And, and it's, it's, it's evolving. It's, it's, it's a phenomenon that is quickly evolving with the development of global economy. I feel like. There is a lot needs to be said about sport precisely because of its, like I said, in my own example, the type of impact it has on people's, you know, individual level and its cultural appeal, for the lack of a better word, to millions of people across the world.

And if there's anything that sport can can do maybe reduce the harm that itself produces, I think, I think maybe it's my job to do that.

Ben: I think that's a fascinating point. And I'd also say as you raise there that it is inherently interdisciplinary. And I think too long it's been Probably too focused on the sports management side, which in itself is a little bit of a subdivision of business management, which is not a particularly critical field.

It's a field that is well established and well researched, but it's not necessarily quite critical. So it's cool that scholars such as yourself are coming to the fore. So I came across your work because of this paper originally you did about the Dakar rally in the last couple of years. Why the Dakar rally as a choice of case, because you've just described all these sports you like, and you haven't said the word rally.

Tell me why, how you came about choosing that case.

Chen: Thank you for that. And let me also let me say that I heard of DACA rally very early on when I was much younger. I was sitting every January sitting in front of a TV. The Chinese television would broadcast Dakar Rally every day, every day, everybody gets to a, a, a certain phase of the rally.

Oh, someone peered her hand so on the the stage and which someone else got an accident, but the background is desert. Background is desert in Africa. And that was my first impression. And maybe 20 years after that, 20 years after that, I would say that I have a much deeper understanding of, you know, colonialism.

I have a much deeper understanding of not only settler colonialism in North America, but also, let's say, French British colonialism in this case. Understanding, you know, a lot of things happening in today's world, we hear the poverty of Africa, we hear the poverty of South America, and I think while I was doing sport research, my focus or my interest has always been understanding the different societal forces that came into play in determining how sport events or how the phenomenon in sport unfold.

So I would say that I had a broad interest in understanding some of these the histories and the geopolitical struggles happening in different parts of the world. And I was influenced by Eduardo Galeano's open veins of Latin America, even though he wrote another book critiquing the commercialization of football in in, in, in the world.

So while I was thinking about what kind of topic, what kind of issues that needs to be raised towards some of these, I would call very contradictory of processes or generation of contradictory narratives. Nowadays, from the entities in sport, of course, I think of motorsport. I think of car racing while they are branding themselves as getting more energy efficient.

I think of the, the, obviously the, the kind of environmental impact that, Not only racing, not only the manufacturing of the vehicles, but also just transportation in general of, say, a fleet of a Formula One race, a fleet of a World Rally Championship, these type of environmental impacts. So, again, it's a contradiction with Some of these car manufacturers narrative of that we are going more energy efficient.

We are following the demand from the public for achieving more sustainable goals, so on, so forth. So when I think of a good example or a very, you know, thorny example where Intervention needs to be made within sport and sustainability. I thought of, of course, folks have written about the environmental impact of Olympic games and mega events.

But I just didn't feel like enough has been, enough attack or critique has been levied against our the, the car racing events, particularly I would say the Dakar Rally has a particular colonial flavor to it. And if we go back to its history, when it first started in 1978, from Paris to Senegal, and later on, its relocation to South America.

So, both its environmental and ecological kind of consequence, but also this particular colonial, imperialist flavor. Draw me attention to Dakar. And I went to try to study more and think about or try to find more resources on it. I'm like, there, there needs to be something. written about the the, the consequences and the damages to South America, because I would say that if you think about the Dakar rally, why would it be in South America?

It's just a ridiculous question to think about. So all of that, I would say, inspired me or propelled me to delve deeper into Into that project.

Ben: Yes. It's a funny point where obviously it used to end in, in Dakar. So that was why they got the name, but they couldn't change it. I'm sure the branding executives, when they moved to South America originally, well, we can't change the name because people know it as, as that now, so we're just going to do it somewhere else.

And now from what I understand, it's moved again. It's now in Saudi Arabia. So, and it's still called the Dakar Rally. So here we are. And yeah, so, so much such a good case. I like the use of your use of the word thorny, such a thorny case to discuss. Yeah. Just the flow of capital and the balance of power.

Obviously being in Saudi Arabia now has added to that, to that story. What, what do you think, or have you had much response in terms of it? Because I, I would agree with you. I don't, I don't think I've read many. Pieces of critique around the Dakar rally, but your, your your piece doesn't pull any punches, shall we say?

Have you had any pushback from stakeholders?

Chen: I would say not yet. It was it was only out for, for a few months and It was in between the two editions of Dakar. They, they happen, they take place in January, December to January. So we're in the off season of Dakar. So I also think that it's not to to do a self degradation.

I also don't think that the, the executive of the a SO, the, the Operating Organization of Dakar rally worry about this academic article as much. If it gets some media exposure, if it's gonna raise some broader public awareness, I think that's when, you know, they may they may come out and say something.

And I will also say that probably it's also that they already left South America and they're like, so what? So what? So, no pushback yet. No pushback from my peer academics either, and maybe to your point, folks are worrying about some other areas of sustainability more than to throw punches to to Dakar Rally or Formula One or, or World Rally Championships.

Ben: I mean, that is one way to look at it. And I think you raised an interesting point that and even in my own understanding, because I am definitely what I would consider a motorsport fan, but that skews quite heavily towards the MotoGP and the Formula 1 and therefore the critical attention, I think.

skews quite heavily towards those tops of those piles. So the rally maybe doesn't get as much critique. I also think that it's, it's very dangerous for such executives to engage with that kind of dialogue because they don't have that many legs to stand on. You know what I mean? Like they can't exactly say that the Dakar rally has nothing to do with colonialism because the, the proof is in the pudding as you, as you've put on paper.

So pretty sure that they will continue to operate as long as they're allowed to operate and any critique that comes their way At the expense of their bottom line. They won't, they won't be pulling back anything anytime soon. So what, what do you think would be a, a better way of doing it? Let's say we have, you know, an inherent need for that type of sport in this case rally.

What would you imagine that some kind of alternative to be? Or do you think it was just the way that it was done, not necessarily that it was done?

Chen: I would say the, it's a very difficult question to respond to. I would say that, you know, we, we need to kind of dial back and think about. This very, very statement or the assertion that if there is an inherent need for such event, we need to ask, who needs this event?

Do the fans? Do everybody else? need this event? Can they, can they not go about their life not watching, say, Dakar Rally on TV 7 p. m. evening in Lyon, in in Marseille, in France? So, I guess not much. Do all the people in the, in the, in Saudi Arabia, are they so eager, desperate to watch the rally? Once a year, they, they anticipate that so much as if it's a festival.

Now they have Ronaldo, they have Namar EL elsewhere to watch. So I think my point is that do the corporations need it more or do other people need it more? So I, I have to step up and argue that perhaps the corporate sponsors, the auto makers, the vehicles companies, and the, the, maybe the tourism companies.

Yes, they probably need the event, the festival, the circus more than anybody else, including the spectators that we assume are diehard fans. So to that, you say what?

Ben: Well, I'd say that exact thought process is what makes you a good researcher because I think most people who enter the world of sports research say, okay, well, we need sport first of all.

So then how do we tinker around with it? But that, that is already not necessarily critical enough. Like I agree that there's something inherent in humans that make us enjoy some version of sport. And that's kind of my personal objective is to find the best version of that. But. The way it exists at the moment is literally just the result of cultural evolution and technological evolution and, and just the, the way that the dice fell at that moment.

There's no reason that any of this could not change or disappear. I mean, I'd even use a more simplistic example that like the fact that football has 11 players. didn't have to have 11 players. It just happened to have 11 players. And had we designed a game that got attention back in the day that had 10 players or 12 players, maybe that would be the one we're playing with now.

So I agree with you that it doesn't necessarily have to exist. And of course, if it went 20 years without existing, most of the people who loved it, maybe would, would move on or find other interests. And then there would be no demand for it to exist. So you'd have this, like, I mean, to use an economist term, supply and demand is a weird one when supply influences demand and demand influences supply.

They've been supplying it for years and they've fostered a new generation who are demanding it. But now as you raise some fairly good, I suppose what economists would call externalities like cultural imperialism and obviously massive emissions, you'd Suddenly, maybe we should stop supplying it, and at some point the demand will go down.

What do you think?

Chen: I think, I think precisely we see a decline of interest for the Olympic Games, one of the biggest circus cities, cities, even though some of these political and business elites in different cities across the world, they have, they have things to gain from bidding and hosting the, the Games.

It's clearly that normal people, residents, working class people, they came to understand that, not in my backyard, it brings more chaos and disruption and raising property price for me than doing any substantial good. And I think it's, I think the, the kind of desire or, or the association with nationalism when it comes to the medal count back in the mid 20th century during the Cold War, I think that has dissipated very much.

That has dissipated very much. And right now China is hosting the Asian Games. And from what I heard, not many people pay attention to it within China. It's it's people losing interest.

Ben: Yeah. I think of course, a lot of these sports and tournaments developed in an era where people had, I guess, less entertainment around them.

And now, you know, particularly in, in developed countries, everyone has TikTok and everyone has Spotify and everyone has a gaming console and it's hard to compete. It is hard to compete. And of course, I don't want a world where there is no sport. That's a personal preference. I don't want a world where we are all only playing video games and watching TikTok.

But at the same time, I, as I agree with you that like there needs to be some kind of reaction here to what kind of sport. And I think the reaction we're seeing at the moment is they're trying to make sports shorter. I think with golf, they're talking about making the majors less than four days, which is.

would have been unheard of 25 years ago, absolutely unheard of. But now it's like, well, people are not going to sit and watch golf for 10 hours, four days in a row.

Chen: You make me think of the the failed attempt to form a European super league. European super league is their desperate attempt, is their desperate attempt to to have some financial viability.

And with, with all the competitions with the, of course, with the shock of. COVID 19 pandemic and these owners are struggling. These owners are struggling trying to find a ways to, to sustain this mode of sport. But I wanted to also comment on Your your, your desire or wish for sport to, to continue and to be maintained.

And I think I, I need to sit here and, and ask sport for, for whom, like sport as spectacle for fans to consume or sport as a, as a form of physical activity, body movement, a community kind of way for people to participate in. Say grassroots sport. So I think it's, it's worthwhile for us to highlight the differences between those two and I'm not sitting here and to say that all the entertainment, all the spectacle needs to be abolished.

I think they have their place. And I would say that there, there might need to be a way to think about just sport beyond a spectacle, beyond a, another way of entertainment for for people in selling tickets and so on and so forth. That brings me to something happened a century ago in Europe, nowhere else in Europe, the workers sport movement.

Workers from different socialists and, and communist organizations, they think about the ways of organizing sport and empowering the working class people in creating bonds between folks from this factory and that factory. What kind of, what kind of ways that they can, they can utilize sport to to enhance the working class community.

Struggles against capital. And I think this this history, unfortunately, is not, it's not widely known, let alone taught or highlighted in in today's academia or in corporate media. And I think I encourage people to to go back and maybe study a little bit, learn a little bit about the Workers Sports Movement, its role in combating fascism, its role in combating rising fascism, particularly in Germany and Austria in late 1920s and early 1930s.

Ben: Yes. And I've commented before on this podcast about the role that sport has in bringing people together in, in various ways and an organization I work for at the moment called Pledge Ball. They're basically trying to leverage that same kind of inherent interest at a sort of small community level. to engage in issues around sustainability, because particularly some issues around sustainability can be quite, I guess some people would argue boring, but also it's quite depressing if you get into the real facts there.

So to kind of use a more uplifting and bonding thing that is inherited sport, I think is quite potentially powerful. And also, I think I agree with your differentiation of the playing and being part of sport versus the. You know, the Hollywoodization or the, what's it, the Disneyfication of a sport, where in that do we find ourselves?

From a personal perspective, I think growing up, I had by chance, not by any perfect design of myself. I think by chance I had a quite a nice symbiosis between the two. And that was with the sport of rugby that I was playing at a school level and, you know, it was a very big part of the community and, and, and my peers all liked it.

I would say it was maybe pushed to too much of a degree, but there were negatives to that, but there were still some positives. And then everyone supported their local team and there was a local club and there was a lot of local interest. And that worked quite well because obviously the best in the community would eventually go play for the team.

And then we all watched that team. So there was some balance that has even in my lifetime gone away. The best players go overseas and even interest in the sport at a local level is diminishing because a lot of us are now, yeah, watching Real Madrid and Barcelona play each other. So yeah, there's now that I guess eroding of the, of local connection to the teams that we like.

Chen: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's in a, in a imperfect analogy. It's, it's like the, it's like in, in small towns and villages, the local restaurants, The mom and pops running grocery stores are getting taken over by transnational corporations getting takeover by McDonald's and Burger Kings and KFC's and and I think that's, that's again, to say that it's it's it's inevitable that we, we need to associate situate sport within, within the flow of capital within the global economy and What you said also reminded me of was the event that I talked about earlier was the World Indigenous Games, World Indigenous Nations Games.

And it was it was an event first started in, in Brazil in 2015, led by some of these indigenous community leaders in Brazil. In Portuguese it's called Jogos Mongais dos Povos Indígenas and I think it has an explicit slogan, that is, they said it's more, it's more important to celebrate.

Celebration of the culture and the bonds of communities is prioritized over competition. I can speak to that. I can speak to that as a volunteer of that event when it's held in Canada. I, I can, I can tell that it was more of an occasion for athletes from different Indigenous communities to get together and learn about each other's culture and also learn about each other's struggles.

I would say common struggles, of course, within their national boundary, within the nation state, but also within their community. against the issue of colonialism across the board. So while our athletes were competing in basketball, in track and field, I would say that nobody was overtly focusing on what kind of record or what kind of rank am I, am I going to achieve in the, in the event.

So I would say that that was a very, again, in terms of shaping my view on, on the different ethos of, between events. So I would say that that was a significant moment where I started to think about obviously alternative ways of organizing sports than the mainstream ones that we have.

Ben: Yes, and I wonder if there is A growing acknowledgement that although, and I even, you know, you could use this with your example about the mom and pop grocery store.

Although there are a couple of advantages and I, you know, in some cases quite significant advantages to the commercialization of something, namely being, I'd say the big one in food would be like economies of scale, but I'd say in sport it's, it's usually based around the performance that if you put a lot of money and attention and focus and the wheels of capital turn and you do all your business and and all the stuff, the outcome on the field will be.

Superior, maybe not even from an entertainment perspective, but from a sheer performance perspective, you know, the, the football or soccer teams of today will beat the football and soccer teams of the past 10 times over. Like, even though this Real Madrid team today is not as good compared to some of their others as a Real Madrid team of the past, they're faster, they're better drilled, you know, it's a new generation.

It's all that stuff. They've got physiotherapists, they've got dietitians, they've got all these things. Unfortunately, all of that stuff does not necessarily mean that the emotional connection and love and connection to the community persists. There's no guarantee that that is the case. And I think there's a growing acknowledgement that it actually might be counterproductive.

That, you know, As many tourists, for example, come in to watch the game, it stops locals going. They just get over saturated. There's too many games. They're trying to squeeze it too much and people disconnect and lose it. And exactly your point about the code of celebration. If you can't celebrate the thing, then winning becomes pretty.

Pretty unimportant. And I think a symptom to maybe enhance our argument here is the interest people are having in what I would call all of these YouTuber celebrity sports, like, you know, the boxing and now they're doing football games as well. But people are loving those they're coming out in hundreds because they had a preexisting emotional connection, granted a parasocial emotional connection, because they know the YouTuber, the YouTuber doesn't know them, but they had a preexisting connection to that person.

So when they're watching it, suddenly there's a little bit of emotion back in it. Yeah. Whereas before they'd been watching this kind of mechanical clockwork sport going on for the last couple of years, and people are sick of it.

Chen: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And first I thought of, I thought of the argument that I made somewhere else is that Of course, the incorporation of folk games, sport, these recreational activities within capitalism, it, of course, had its advantages, it created a lot of wealth, it created a lot of advancements, and like you mentioned, technology, just a spectacle, it's, it's becoming ever more let's say, fascinating for all the, all the viewers.

Let's sit here and say that all the cars today, all the cars today are way more advanced compared to those in the past. And all the consumer goods that we have today, we have phones, we have these devices. And to your point, does that make everybody living a more fulfilling life? Maybe that's a big question mark.

That's a big question mark. And To your other point about just the emotional connection, the emotional connection, I think of one other scholar, a good friend of mine, Nathan Coleman Lamb, talk about, talk about how fans really needed that, really needed that emotional connection to their teams, to their favorite players, so that they feel invigorated.

To go to work, to toil the next day. That's the importance of sport, playing in people's lives. And unfortunately, that's relying on the the physical exploitation of the athletes they are cheering for. And once an athlete is not capable of producing the performance and bringing in wins, they will soon, very soon, to be deserted.

Maybe the fandom will, will, will disappear at some point, so. That's the cruelty. That's the cruelty of it.

Ben: Okay. But now let's, let's, let's try and be a little optimistic or very hard to be optimistic on this podcast. I promise you. What, what fundamentals need changing here? I mean, I think we've already kind of alluded to one, which would be a more local version of what's going on.

Maybe something more authentic to the diversity of cultures that are on the ground. What are the fundamentals we're looking at here to kind of guide sport away from hyper commercialized, hyper spectacle, hyper disconnected into something more worth celebrating and to be a, being a part of?

Chen: That's a, that's such a huge question, but you said it in such a, such a calm way.

That's a huge question, man. That's a huge question. So let me say, when you say fundamental, fundamental, if we're going to talk about fundamental, fundamental, we need to. We need to think about how the economy is organized, not only in the local, national, but also on the global scale. We need to think about, say, for Chile, for Peru, for Bolivia, for Paraguay.

To say no to a event like Dakar, what kind of things do those government, what kind of stance can they hold, what kind of resources they would otherwise needs to have to do that because their reliance on capital, because their reliance on international investment, foreign investment, and Like Walter Rodney said, all the foreign capital, all the foreign investment, they are foreign only in their name, but not in their source.

Meaning that all the capital coming to invest in Africa and in South America, they were extracted in the past from these continent to begin with. So that's a little detour in thinking about foreign investment and foreign capital. So let's think about. If for the local government to say no to these vampire like, what I've described, events, they need to have some power, they need to have a certain level of economic autonomy, and say that we don't necessarily prefer to have these media exposure, the tourism, the, let's say, two week economic activities brought by the Dakar rally.

As compared to, we develop our own economy, we have our own ways of stimulating people's consumption, we have our own ways to creating jobs. I think those are, those are two very distinct mode of thinking about how a country in the global south, a country in a developing part of the world, in navigating the tension of, you know, meeting the needs of foreign capital, and also the need of people.

their own people. So I'm jumping a little bit outside sport today at this moment. I'm jumping a little bit out of sport in my answer at this moment, but I think that's necessary because a lot of times folks in sports studies, they don't look at whose interest is represented. Within a race course within the basketball arena, and I think we need to, we need to definitely take into account of that.

So that's, that's one thing when I, when I think of how these global South government can have more economic sovereignty. And I think of the responsibilities of people living in the global North, people living in the United States, people living in the UK. What kind of things. Do you pressure your government in terms of your diplomatic policies?

What kind of things do you pressure your government to do in terms of your military presence in other parts of the world? What kind of things that your delegate or maybe, maybe some people working in the International Monetary Fund or World Bank, what kind of things, what kind of debt policy do those institutions, have or have not on some of these developing countries.

So I'm, I'm talking about very grand scheme things, but I think that dictate determines how a national government, how a local government have its autonomy to say no, that we are going to protect our Local community and our local ecology are our national parks and and natural reserves instead of opening our doors for these, uh, foreign companies.

So that, I think, is the fundamental thing that will eventually have an impact on whether we can we can see less of a harm that sport. These events are doing to these, global South communities, and I would say, of course, that sounds a little bit too big for, you know, a lot of folks to, to consider, and, like I said, you can definitely, you can definitely think about your own political activity, what kind of things you're, that your government in the Global North are doing in, in, in perpetuating these these deleterious policy and impact to to the Global South.

And if we're going to talk about just. local level, local level, think about within the school district, within, within the city. And I think, in fact, I would say that there are vibrant opportunities, that there are vibrant examples. that already existing that people, people not in the executive office of a, of a major league, they are already doing, that are exercising and, and maybe practicing a type of alternative sport.

Let me use two example. One is, one, one example I can think of is recreational baseball league, softball league in Toronto, and I think, It's called the Field of Dream and Recreational Softball League in Toronto. People practicing land acknowledgment, asking folks to think about where they come from and their responsibility to the land.

But also people think, the organizer think about, The tension between using a government sanctioned recreational field or trying tactics such as just occupying a, a, a baseball diamond to to exercise a type of, of temporary autonomy, so on and so forth. Similar examples have been widespread in, in Europe as well, I think, the resistance of football fans in terms of, like, not only protesting against their their club owners, but organizing production of fanzines, production of alternative clubs and so on and so forth.

And, and let's also think about the influential example of clubs such as San Paolo in Germany and Livorno in Italy and these left wing clubs and, and the activities that they engage in. Recently, I found an example of, I would say, a Youth baseball competition held in the United States, and it was it not only included a few teams in, in the U. S., but they also invited a delegation from Cuba, a youth baseball team to, to play with some American teenagers. And I think it was such an important gesture to think about, at grassroots level, how, how two nations of such, such tensions, it should not prevent. The working class people of these nations to think about the commonality, the struggles they share.

And I think, again, I think to your point earlier about the, the cultural appeal, the impact of sport. And I think those are, those are the magic of sport. Those are the magic of sporting, connecting people, not in a superficial way, not like, Oh, sport bring people together just because you and I sit in the, on the same level, the bleachers.

So I think. A lot of good work has been done, I think, with these recent years of anti racist, reckoning, devastating impact of climate change. With the devastating impact of austerity policies within these countries, to some level, people are pressed, people are pushed to think an alternative. And I cannot sit here and think I have all the answers.

And I think it's it's I'm, I'm confident that something good will come out with, with struggles, with struggles.

Ben: But I think, I think you're touching on some, some very fundamental, as we highlight the word, fundamental issues that it's important to understand because that, that point you make about capital flows, you can't get away from it.

I mean, to use an example of my UK, you've got like, you know, Obviously the history, the British history within South Africa and that colonial past, and you know, that diamond that sits on the King's, the crown of the King's head comes from South Africa, didn't pay for it. But that's just one example of the many things.

But then a few months ago, the South African government tried to get a partnership with Tottenham Hotspur about a tourism thing, kind of like visit Rwanda with Arsenal. So you can think about that in the context that this country has been, you know, To some degree, not an absolute degree, had money extracted or value extracted from it to the UK.

And then the UK is now getting money from South Africa, such that the UK consumers will go to South Africa to spend money. So just trying to get a bit of money back, you know, the South Africans don't want those British tourists there to give them high fives. They want them there to go there and spend money.

And of course we can't even escape the emissions of it all. Like, you know, every time a British person goes on holiday there, there's a huge emissions, but you know, without some kind of reparation or something like that, there's no way to equalize that, that imbalance. You know, the British consumer wants something in return for giving up their higher position.

And I even would say there's an example now between the UK and the U S even though the UK is not a. A victim of the U S so to speak in economic terms, it obviously doesn't match up. And you've got something like Rexum, you know, which is really successful, the documentary where Rexum has created such a tension with that show.

And, and, and there's as putting things in such a quote unquote, American consumer lens that British clubs are forced to do something similar. Like they're all making shows because they know that if enough money was to go into one club or one thing, they'd get blown out of the water. So like, even if there is some interest and, you know, you use some good examples, like St.

Pauli, I'd use AFC Wimbledon in South London as another example that's owned by the fans. Even these guys have, there's interest in, in maintaining some kind of like resistance to it, but eventually it does, For example, the performance doesn't hold up. You know, if, if AFC Wimbledon got relegated for four divisions in the next four years, they'd probably change model, which is it's tragedy.

But it's like, what's the phrase market dynamics, Trump's everything. You can, you can be as much of a rebellion as you want. But as you say, if this, if the structure of the system maintains things like, yeah, if at a big level debt policy, but at a small level, just. the flows of capital, they can't really, they can't really get out of it.

So I'm not expecting you to have all of the solutions, but I think you're, you're touching on some really good, really good problems. And yeah, I know maybe some kind of global movement of knowing that this is happening could be, could be some kind of solution.

Chen: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I always use this example of pointing out my, my students, my American students, the apparels that they use, the jerseys.

The backpacks, Nike Air Force One sneakers, and I ask everybody please look at where is it made. Why is that some people in other parts of the world earning two dollars a day or even less to manufacture this? This one, I think it's, it's, it's, it's something that all of us talking about sustainability need to reckon with.

Let's say an enclave, a small community. can be self sustaining in the United States. But on the grand scheme, in the, in the, in the bigger picture, I think you can be perfect. Everything can be run perfect within this utopian community. However, how big or how small it is, a certain location, it does not negate the fact that it's, it's, it's at certain location of the global flow of goods and resources and It is essentially part of the global commodity chain or just the global economic system.

So I think having that analysis is incredibly important for folks who are doing sustainability work. You know, sustainability is becoming such a, such a widely used word. To me, it means literally next to none, unfortunately.

Ben: I think it's, it's like usually when people use it, particularly in sport, they actually mean efficiency.

You touched on this earlier with like motor sports. They actually mean efficiency. They're not becoming more sustainable. They're becoming more efficient. They are just reducing the amount of fossil fuels they use. They're still using fossil fuels. And I think you've made a very good point there. Again, as much as I admire what AFC Wimbledon, for example, has done as a club, if I mean, all of those guys who support them, even in this British system of hyper commercialized football, they have, they own their club and that's quite a socialist outcome, but they all go.

I mean, not all of them, sorry, but some of them go work at a, at a, at a factory that's owned by a multinational. Some of them work high up in multinationals. So that the money they're coming in to put into their socialist institution is from a. hyper commercialized capitalist system, which is, you know, sad because you don't want to criticize them for their work.

But as you say, that, that kind of thing almost could not happen at the other end.

Chen: I, I, I appreciate that. And I did not want this conversation to end on that pessimistic note. I didn't want this podcast to, to end on the pessimistic note. I wanted to say that it's precisely because of that. It's precisely because of the interconnected, the intertwined nature of capitalism.

Capitalism do not exist in one country, one continent. It is precisely because of that it connects the working class, the disenfranchised people from all over the world together. And it's, it's precisely because of that we think about the fragility and fragility of capitalism as well. Say, all the dock workers in Europe refuse to work for a day.

That's going to be catastrophic, profound crisis. So I think, of course, we realize the enormity of the challenge, but we also, precisely because of that, we need to highlight the agency and the possibility of working class people across the world to think about To think about the collective struggles they're in.

And and I think we, we are not to criticize the, the, the source of income that a worker is earning. And I think they earn their money honestly. They earn their money with their, with their sweat and blood. And I respect that. And I think it's more of the question of how that. someone can connect their own personal individual struggles with, with people across the world.

I always ask the question, can a marginalized, oppressed, black athletes in the, in the United States connect their struggles was the workers in Southeast Asia. And I think of Muhammad Ali as a, as a great example of doing that in making that connection very explicit.

Ben: Yes. And I think that coordination between various oppressed groups is one of the hardest problems.

And I think a lot of complex problems come down to the difficulty that is inherent in coordinating and communicating. I'd even use a completely non sport example of like, you know, there's a lot of talk at the moment that as China is getting to a stronger point of development, that countries like Vietnam are stepping in to become the, you know, the manufacturing of the world.

But there's an argument that, that instead of these countries competing for the cheapest labor, being like, Oh, America come manufacture here, come manufacture here. All countries that could offer that could coordinate and be like, listen, we're not going to allow this level of dominance to continue. There has to be more parity, like minimum wage, doesn't matter where you go.

But of course, as soon as someone in the country breaks ranks, then the system perpetuates. Then America is like, Oh, fine. I'll just make that stuff there. And it's that level of I guess, consistency there's always undermined. Yeah, maybe even workers movements, you know, even, even strikes as soon as one, one strike leader breaks ranks and says, right, I'm going to accept less than ideal terms, money talks, but yes, we need to, we do, we do need to end, but I'm going to try and make a little bit positive.

What is the next stage of your research? You, you've done Dakar rally. What's, what's coming up? Cause I know you, you really are breaking ground here when it comes to the topics of sport and imperialism and capital flows.

Chen: Great question. I wouldn't describe myself as breaking ground. If that is, it's a very sad thing.

It's a very sad thing to think about. And secondly, let me also break the stereotype as if every researcher have a well laid out research plan. As if everybody just come to, To the office. Oh, they have a plan, just like how the transnational corporations, they have a plan to conquer this country and that country.

Let me, let me say that I'm in the process of thinking about my, my next plan and I don't have a plan yet. And I think a lot of other things I have done so far is that I'm reacting to, to different things. And if there are some stuff coming out. If there is something that I personally have encountered, I have been trying to address those questions.

So long story short, I don't have a particular plan yet, and if there is a plan, we cannot let it go the enemy know..

Ben: Although fortunately, unless they've got some AI bots on it, I don't think the quote unquote enemy listening to this, I'll see the words imperialism and eco socialist on the description.

Although then again, if any of them are listening, let me know your thoughts. Like come, come back comments. Yeah, this is not, it's not me and Chen deciding the new world order. The whole point is that it's collaborative and communicative. So yeah, come forward, but Chen, thank you so much for your time today.

I've really appreciated it.

Chen: Absolutely, my pleasure.

Ben: That was our episode with Chen Chen. I really appreciate his time and for the dedication he provides to such a long list of interesting ethical sporting intersections. His voice is so unique and helpful with these debates. And that's all for today. There is another episode coming out soon to coincide with the launch of a potentially landmark book, certainly in the field of sport ecology.

I'm interviewing the author on that, so make sure you subscribe so you don't miss it. And until then, thank you for listening and take care.